The Red Snapper Data Divide: Why Anglers See Fish—and NOAA Says They’re Rebuilding
Every year, anglers land dozens of red snapper in short order—then wonder why their season is so limited. For NOAA Fisheries, that question is core to their challenge.
“We’re not saying there aren’t fish. We’re saying we have to quantify what’s there—and that’s different from perception,” says Andy Strelcheck, NOAA Fisheries Southeast Administrator.
In this deep-dive, Strelcheck breaks down:
The math behind red snapper stock assessments
How overfishing defined the 1980s and 90s baseline
The improvements seen—but not complete recovery
Why surveys don’t always match what anglers see
“We’re trying to rebuild a fishery for generations—not just manage around this season’s success.”
Why This Disconnect Exists:
Angler Success ≠ Full Stock Recovery: Fish can be locally abundant but still not at sustainable biomass.
Observation Bias: Reefs get fished hard; people report what they see in high-density zones.
Data Complexity: Scientific surveys cover broader, random habitats—not just high-yield spots.
Key Science Explained:
NOAA uses a combination of fishery-dependent and fishery-independent surveys
Stock models factor age structure, growth, mortality, and gear impact
Recovery is defined by long-term sustainability, not short-term catchability
“The goal isn’t just to see fish—it’s to have a population that can withstand pressure indefinitely.”
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Hey, this is Andy Recheck. I'm the regional administrator for NOA Fishery Southeast Regional Office. This is the Tom Roland podcast. Andy, how are you? I'm doing great. And yourself? I'm
doing well. I'm doing well. Where are you today?
I'm here in St. Petersburg, Florida.
Okay. Very cool. Um, so I'm really happy to have Noah on the podcast today because, um, there's just a lot of, um, kind of questions about, uh, regulations and so I'm hoping that we can, we can get into some of that and what your role is and how that's different than FWC and everybody else.
As far as, um, you know, fisheries management and things, I, I know that a lot of people are interested in that. I'd like to start off by asking you if you could change one public perception about NOAA or fishery science, what, what would it be?
Wow. Starting off with a softball question there, Tom. No, I appreciate that. Uh, no, I think what I would tell people is that, uh, the employees here at NOA or dedicated public servants, we work really hard to manage fisheries. Uh, fisheries management is very complicated from data collection and science to ultimately making tough regulatory decisions.
Obviously what we wanna accomplish is both in the best interest of both the fish we manage and the fishermen that go out and harvest those fish. And so our goal is obviously to ensure sustainable fisheries and, uh, good solid fishing experiences. And so we're really passionate and dedicated about that.
And, uh, just hope that, uh, people realize we really care about our jobs and the work we do.
Okay, thanks. And then, um, let's talk about the goals, because the goals for Noah and what you're, what you're trying to accomplish might be different than the goals for FWC, for example. Um, when you're managing a fishery, um, do you have some goals in mind?
Um, for commercial fishing, for recreational fishing, for the state, the state of the, of the fishery. When, when that you're managing for.
I would say that the, um, state and federal governments actually have a lot of shared goals in terms of sustainability of fisheries. I think where things differ is that we operate under different mandates and laws and, uh.
The State Authority obviously is different from Federal Authority. Um, we have, in my view some additional constraints placed upon us based on the Magnus and Stevens Act, which is, uh, federal law and, uh, regulation that mandates the work we do. And so that emphasizes and focuses a lot on, uh, preventing and ending over phishing and rebuilding over fish, fish populations.
Uh, and so those are major drivers obviously for the work we do, um, at the federal level. And we work very closely with the states, right? So I think a lot of people don't understand the relationship we have with the states. So we collaborate with them working on management decisions through our fishery management councils, but they're also key partners with regard to helping us to collect data.
Uh, a lot of the people that will intercept you at the dock or call you on the phone are actually state partners that we're working with and providing funding to support those data collections.
That's interesting. Um, so as far as the, like, the, um, the data collection goes, like I know that some states have, um, you know, just taken it upon themselves to also do some data collection.
Um, especially as it re you know, in, um, in regard to like the red snapper or something, a a fish that, you know, is, I'm sure we're gonna talk about the red snapper here quite a bit more. But, um, but you will also work with the state to try to get the data collection, because the data collection is really, is really an interesting topic here because I'm sure that's, that's one of the most challenging parts of your job.
So let, can we just talk about data collection and, and how that happens on the recreational and on the commercial side?
Yeah, I mean, it's vast amount of data that's collected to manage fisheries. Um, before we even get into talking about commercial recreational fisheries. Um. Our, um, science center plays a role in data collection.
So they go out and do surveys, uh, during spring, summer, fall to actually sample, uh, the abundance and distribution of fish, uh, throughout the Gulf of America and South Atlantic Ocean. Um, those are what are considered fishery independent surveys, uh, that are collecting data independent of fishermen. Uh, and then from, uh, the standpoint of commercial and recreational fisheries, as you point out, it's complicated and there's a lot of time, effort, energy that goes into that.
Um, recreational data collection is certainly a hot topic as you point out. Uh, we've been working with our state partners in many areas to expand the use of state surveys. These are more specialized surveys that can potentially collect data in a more timely fashion or more targeted, um, way to collect better information with regard to specific species.
Uh, but it, it's really a collective collaborative effort that we work with those states to, uh, not only collect the samples from fishermen when they return from a fishing trip, but also survey them and get accurate information, um, with regard to how many fishing trips they're taking throughout the year.
And that can go in a variety of manners, whether it's, um, doing mail based surveys, which seems antiquated, but a lot of people want the time after they've gone fishing to actually, I. Sit down at their table and report what they've done over the course of the last week month, uh, couple of months to, um, the actual realtime kinda logbook type reporting where you return to the dock and you're required to submit through an app your phishing activity.
So there's not necessarily a one size fits all. It varies greatly from state to state and from federal survey to federal survey. Uh, but what we continue to do is strive for obviously improvements in those surveys to help better manage our resources.
Mm-hmm. And then on the, on the commercial side, it seems like that would be easier because you could get a lot of data from the, the fish house or, or whoever is purchasing the fish and what was brought to the dock.
Is that easier than, than recreational, or what's your opinion on that?
I would say yes, it is easier. There's, um. Uh, permitting requirements. There's less, obviously commercial fishermen. There are recreational anglers. Um, there's also, uh, numerous different types of reporting. So we may require, um, commercial fishermen to submit log books or report through an online data system, but then once they land that catch, they have to report it to a dealer, and the dealer then submits records.
So there's duplicative process intentionally, uh, built into the system to ensure accountability and, uh, make sure that we're, uh, generating obviously accurate estimates of landings and catch, you know, one of the biggest challenges that we face for commercial and recreational fisheries. Now, just because we have so much fishing effort in our region is, um, observations on the water of fishermen that release fish.
And what proportion of those fish obviously then die, um, after release. That's become obviously an increasing portion of our fishing mortality and a major challenge, obviously for regulating offshore species.
How is that, how is that done? Um, like you're watching people release fish, is that how, how is that observation being done?
Like, like just with binoculars or, um, drones or like what, what, what's the technology of, of watching that?
For commercial fisheries and charter boats or head boats, obviously fairly straightforward. We can send either physical observers, people on board, the boats to actually watch mm-hmm. Um, what people are catching and releasing, and then report that back.
Um, we've also experimented with in various fisheries, um, electronic monitoring, which, um, are cameras that are strategically placed on the sides of vessels. Oftentimes they will have, um, measuring boards or some other, um, device so that we can actually see, you know, the size of the fish that's being released back into the water.
Uh, but those are largely done on larger vessels. Mm-hmm. And intended obviously, um, for. You know, direct observation where people or cameras can be placed on it. We are, um, working with the Gulf States Commission right now, that's another partner, uh, collective of all five Gulf States, uh, to continue to focus on improving data collection for, um, released fish.
And some of the things that they're gonna be looking at are cameras at, um, boat passes to quantify fishing effort, how many boats are coming in and out of those passes to, um, catch cards. So you might go out on a fishing trip and you're given a catch card and you're asked to then report back at the end of the trip the species and number of fish that you caught and released.
How would, how would the, um, the use of descending devices, um, affect the, the mortality rates? Like as you're, as you're measuring them now and then you have people using descending devices, would those fish be considered released alive, or how would that change things?
We do a lot of experimental studies with descending devices.
And so, um, the first thing I'll emphasize is that even using a descending device doesn't mean that you're gonna avoid release mortality, right? There's gonna still be some portion of those fish that are injured from the phishing process, whether it's hooked badly or it's gut hooked, or it's suffering barotrauma because it came up from death.
Um, but what we do know with the use of those descending devices is that release mortality will decrease. And so that we can factor that into our population assessments. And ultimately every fish that goes back that survives obviously is a fish that can live another day and be caught by another angler or yourself on another fishing trip.
Mm-hmm. And with those descending devices, I mean, it wasn't very long ago that, um, you were required to, um, to have like. A needle or, or some sort of a, some sort of a device that you could, that you could vent the fish and then we kind of seems like now it's kind of optional of that or a descending device or where is the, where is the, the rule now as far as Noa goes in federal waters of what kind of equipment that, that anglers need to have on the boat?
Let's just talk about recreational anglers for now. I don't know what you do with commercial anglers as far as that goes.
Yeah, so for descending devices, it's a requirement to be rigged and ready for use. So we obviously have challenges with enforcing, um, at sea usage of descending devices. Um, we have been, um, working extensively, um, in both the Gulf and South Atlantic to educate anglers about the benefits of descending devices.
Uh, there's a program you're probably aware of called Return and Right. Mm-hmm. Uh, that was funded through Deepwater Horizon, um, funding. Uh, that's helping to, um, do training and, uh, provide education to anglers and in turn they receive a descending device as part of that training. Um. So they're not required to use it, but obviously that helps to encourage anglers to use it under certain circumstances.
Um, what I, um, would also know you point to obviously venting tools. Um, so venting, um, and release of fish really is defending on the circumstances that in which you're fishing, right? And so if you're fishing in shallower water, you don't necessarily have to vent the fish. Um, so it really depends on the circumstances and kind of best practices.
Uh, so what we obviously encourage anglers is that, you know, you have to have the venting tools and, uh, devices as well as descending devices. Uh, at the end of the day, um, you know. What should be done is obviously in the best interest of the fish based on the circumstances in which you're, um, you're fishing and obviously, uh, releasing a fish that, uh, is suffering from barotrauma is obviously key with those descending devices.
Mm-hmm. But is there, is there a law that says that you have to have these tools on board right now? Yes.
Yes. There's requirements for descending devices, inventing tools in the Gulf and South. So
either or, or, I mean, can, can an angler just say, well, I've got this, I've got this venting tool here, um, and I don't need a descending device?
Or do you have to have both? Or like, is it, is it up to that angler?
So, so, so descending devices are required. I'm, I'm phoning a friend here with Sean to just confirm the venting tool requirements haven't been eliminated.
Hey, Tom. Hey Sean. Yeah, no, you have your choice. You have to have either a venting tool or descending device rigged and ready to go.
So it gives the fishermen the power to choose what tool they're most comfortable with. Right. Some guys like the hypodermic needle. They're good at it, especially like head boat mates. You know, they can't descend a bunch of fish. They get a bunch of undersized lane snap on board, they can start venting, venting, venting, and send them back down.
So, mm-hmm. We are giving fishermen the chance to use which device they prefer as long as they're compliant. So they have to have it rigged and ready to go like Andy said. So.
Right. Okay. Sorry to
jump in and do all this thing. No, no, I'm, I'm happy to,
and you can, you can stick around if you like. Um, I did have a big head, so we, we've kind of, um, covered a whole bunch of different things.
Uh, I want to kinda get back on track to where, to the outline that I had here. We've covered data collection a little bit covered, um, mortality rates and, and the tools that we need to have. But one of the things that I think that a lot of people are confused about. Is just kind of who's who in fishery management.
And so if we, if we were to start at the top and just say, um, you know, who does what, can you walk us through how Noah and the regional councils and the advisory panels and then the states, how they all kind of fit together into a comprehensive fisheries management plan?
Yeah, and I can understand obviously why there's a lot of confusion 'cause there's a lot of people that work in fisheries management.
So, um, for state management, let's start there. Um, okay. Agencies like Florida Fish and Wildlife Commission, they regulate species that are in inshore nearshore waters, right in the um, Gulf that's out to nine miles. And in the South Atlantic, that's out to three miles. So they have authority, um, to manage species like SN and sea trout and, you know, many of those common insource species, tarpon.
Mm-hmm. Um, where we kind of divide management is kind of based on the kinda need for federal management, whether the species is prominent in federal waters versus state waters. And so the fishery service is responsible for federal fisheries management. So that occurs outside of that state waters boundary of nine or three miles all the way out to 200 miles, which is considered the United States exclusive economic zone.
Um, in the Southeast we have three fishery management councils. So, um, one is in the Caribbean, um, the other two Gulf of Amer, uh, Gulf, uh, fishery Management Council, which is outta Tampa, Florida. And the third is the South Atlantic Fishery Management Council out of Charleston, South Carolina. They, um, provide, um, re they develop fishery management plans and amendments and provide recommendations to my agency for approval of regulations.
So we have ultimately the authority to approve the recommendations that come from the councils. They essentially establish the management plans, develop all the regulations and, um, concepts, and then ultimately we implement those. So species like snapper and grouper and Jax and dolphin and wahoo are species that are managed federally, that are prominent obviously in federal waters, uh, that we have authority to manage.
Um, the council process. Um, what I often tell people is, uh, one of the most kind of transparent, inclusive processes that I think you can possibly have, which in many ways is frustrating to anglers because it's such a deliberate process that takes a long time to develop, uh, regulations. Uh, but at the end of the day, the, the councils are essentially represented by state directors, myself as the head of the Southeast region Fishery Service, and then constituents that are, um, uh.
Uh, appointed by the Secretary of Commerce and recommended by the governors. And so we have recreational fishermen and commercial fishermen and, um, academics and others that sit on the councils as well as those government officials from the states and myself. And we're decision making bodies. And so we ultimately, you know, make those recommendations that come before the fishery service for implementation.
And then in addition to that, um. As you mentioned, there is advisory panels and scientific and statistical committees and a whole host of other kinda layers of bureaucracy. But, uh, once again, it's that kind of transparent engaging process. So advisory panels are composed of fishermen and other stakeholders that are, um.
Interested in the resource and wanting to contribute, obviously, to management. So by their name, their advisory to the council. But they provide input and recommendations on ideas they provide, you know, their own ideas that the council can chew on and think about. And ultimately, um, our contributor obviously to management decisions.
And then, um, they also have what's called a scientific and statistical committee. Um, that is our, uh, de scientific decision making body. Um, so there are requirements under federal law, um, for certain actions and activities that they perform. And ultimately they set catch levels, essentially the maximum, um, catch level that we can specify for federally managing our various fisheries.
So catch level's, essentially a quota for the resource that we can't go above.
Okay. And for the appointed ones, um, is there a term length on those, on those positions?
There is, and in fact yesterday we just announced our new appointments for the council. So it's a three year term and then it can be renewed.
Um, or re people can be reappointed twice, so they can extra actually serve consecutively for nine straight years if they're repoint or reappointed, their second and third term.
Okay. And then on the other ones, um, like the, uh, advisory panel, is that a volunteer position or what, how does that, how do you get on that board or that panel?
It's, um, voluntary, but travel, um, and, you know, expenses are paid to go to meetings and attend, uh, meetings. Um, the. Advisory panel is an application process. Um, they would submit your application, uh, to the Fishery Management Council. It's done on an annual basis. Advisory panels are then reviewed by the council members, and selections are made.
Um, typically around the summer month meetings that we have.
How many people would be on that, like on an, on an advisory panel?
Varies by the fishery. It varies by the issue. Um, I would say on average, um, probably about, um, minimum of 12, upwards of 15 to 18. Um, mm-hmm. Just kind of a large panel.
Yeah. I think it's important that people understand how, how, what the process is of getting on one of those panels because, you know, you hear people complain about this or that, it's like, well.
You could volunteer your time and be on that panel and have a lot more say in what's going on. And some people don't even realize that that's a possibility. Um, so if you were, if, if someone was super interested in that and, um, what, what would be the first step that they would take to, to, you know, find out when these, uh, positions are available and how would they submit an application?
Yeah, so they can certainly reach out to my office. Uh, Sean Meehan, who you've been introduced to here is my recreational fishing coordinator. Um, go directly to the Fishery Management Council, so the Gulf Fishery Management Council or South Atlantic Fishery Management Council on their website. Um, they'll talk about their advisory panels.
Um, they have obviously key points of contact that people can reach out to and talk about opportunities. Uh, have them walk them through the application process so that they know when to submit applications, what the requirements would be to be involved in a process like this, and, uh, any other details that may wanna learn about.
Okay. And then the last thing we discussed was the scientific councils. How would someone find themselves on a scientific council? Is that an appointment or recommendation or volunteer?
So those are also, um, voluntary positions that, um. Are, you know, selected through a application process. Those are specific areas of expertise.
They tend to be academics or government officials with, you know, specific knowledge about the science, uh, and work that's being conducted for research. Um, and so it's a different kind of layer of requirements to participate in a scientific and statistical committee relative to advisory panel.
Okay.
Alright, cool. So now we've kind of established how somebody could, could, um, get on one of these panels if they, if they were so inclined. Um, can we talk about red snapper a little bit? I mean, that's the, obviously the hottest topic there is and I think that it is a hot topic because on the one hand, you know, the, the, the bright light at the end of the tunnel is that the red snapper seems to be doing incredibly well.
Um, and people go out and they catch 'em. You know, if they're fishing for mutton, snappers, or any other fish that all, a lot of times they're bycatch. I know that when I first started fishing in the Keys, that was not happening. So there's obviously been some sort of a, a, a, a boom in the population of red snapper.
Um, I don't think that just everybody has just gotten better at catching red snapper. It's like you're, you're doing the same things that you always did and you're now catching red snappers in places that you weren't catching them before. But the season is very short, and the opportunity to keep them as food is small.
And I think that's frustrating to people when they, when they don't understand, like, there's so many out here. For example, like in your, in your job, you work with all the different states, right? Like, yes. Okay. So you're, so an example would be you go to Louisiana and literally the red snapper are boiling at the surface.
It's crazy, and yet you can't keep them for a certain period of time. So let's, let's kind of just go into that, like, why is the season so short? What kind of data would be necessary, um, to make a season longer for the red snapper or for any fish? Um, because I think that's where the frustration lies is like, why is this fish so protected when there seems to be so many of them right now?
And I just don't think that people quite understand what the, what the, um, process is for extending a season or where that data comes from. That's why I started, started with the data of what, what is the challenge of collecting this data? And then, you know, as, as, as somebody that's in charge of the management, that's a, that's a big decision to extend a season or to.
I, I don't know what goes into that decision, but that's your, that's your job. And, and so maybe you could help us to understand what does go into that decision.
Yeah, and a great question and um, I'm gonna try to parse it out between the, talking about the Gulf of America first and then shifting over to the South Atlantic.
'cause we're talking about two separate red snapper populations mm-hmm. That are managed differently. Um, so. Gulf of America back in about 2007, we implemented what's called a rebuilding plan. Right? So the population is depleted, it's overfished. We need to rebuild the population. Overfishing was occurring.
We, um, reduced the catch limits considerably. I think it got down to total across the entire gulf for both commercial and recreational anglers of about 5 million pounds. Right. Which is a lot. It sounds like a lot, but compared to today, it's not very much.
Mm-hmm.
So over time, what, what, what would it be today?
Just when you, when you, well. So, so the population responded. We started rebuilding the population and today we're at over 16 million pounds for the catch limit for commercial and recreational, right? So substantial increase, threefold increase as the population responded, right? Angler started seeing more fish on the water.
They started seeing bigger fish on the water. They were obviously encountering more fish. And what was happening is the seasons were getting shorter because I. Uh, fishermen were catching the quota faster. Um, that obviously was starting to frustrate a lot of anglers. A lot of the states were frustrated by that.
And so the states started to open up their state waters inshore of that nine mile line I talked about earlier. Um, which resulted in then us having to us, meaning the federal government having to shorten the seasons in federal waters, right? And so it was this kind of downward spot spiral. So no one liked that.
There was a lot of frustration around the, you know, um, health of the population, improving people, believing the science was in disagreement with their observations on the water. And, um, ultimately it led, um, in 20. 18, actually 2017, to the states and federal government kind of agreeing, Hey, we need to align our fishing seasons.
We also want to test out what's called state management, right? Which is essentially a delegation of authority from the federal government to the states. The states can use their state surveys, uh, they can set bag limits and size limits and seasons for anglers off of their state to kind of best meet the needs of their needs of their state angling population.
So we tested that for a few years in 2018 and 2019 it was a success. And then we ultimately implemented it in 2020. Um, we haven't had a recent. Assessment of the population of the Gulf of America for some time. Um, there was an independent study that was done that indicated that the red snapper population was, uh, large and abundant.
Um, so we're working on the next population assessment, but bottom line is we, uh, the federal government manage, um, the commercial fishery right now in the Gulf. We manage the four hire sector in the Gulf and set the seasons, and then the states, um, set the seasons for private anglers. So when you say, obviously, I.
You know, the seasons are short and actually in the Gulf of America, um, we've gotten to seasons that are over a hundred days now for most of the private anglers off of the various states. Um, that's kind of a catch 22. We're hearing obviously experience, like you mentioned about fish that are just teaming at the surface, right.
In a really abundant, and then we're hearing, you know, areas close to shore, uh, in other areas of the Gulf where they're becoming depleted and either less abundant or smaller. So it's based on obviously a lot of localized fishing pressure. Um, but, uh, overall state management is at least allowed for greater flexibility in terms of managing, um, based on kind of state angler needs.
What, what goes into an assessment? Like you said, you're getting prepared for this and we haven't had one in quite some time. Like, what kind of resources are necessary to, to, to do a full assessment of a population like a red snapper.
Yeah, so tremendous amount of resources. Um. So we talked earlier about the various surveys that we conduct.
So there's the independent surveys that are done, um, by the fishery service and other partners to collect information on abundance. We, um, use obviously landings and discard estimates that are collected from anglers, um, from a whole host of different surveys and logbook programs. Um. A lot of biological data.
So when we sample, obviously the catch of fish at the dock, um, we learn a lot about the actual fish that are being caught from the size, uh, and, um, growth of those fish to removing what are called olis ear bones that allow us to determine the age of the fish. So we want, obviously to look at a population of fish and see that there's a kind of natural progression of, um, ages to older age classes.
All of that gets combined into a complicated statistical model. But, uh, at the end of the day, it's not just like one or two sources of data. It is tends to, you know, a hundred sources of data that often, uh, inform obviously those, um, assessment models.
Wow. And all those different sampling. Um, you know, there's, there's questions and, and criticisms obviously on all the different sampling.
The doc side, the, the mailing. Is there one that. You feel is the most effective or has proven with the data to be the most effective? I mean, you mentioned like old school mail. Um, it seemed like you were kind of alluding to the fact that maybe you get better, uh, returns on the mail ones, but I don't, I don't know.
Uh, I'm not saying that you did say that, but I, is there a better one? Is it like, or is it a combination of all of them that we need?
To be honest, the best source would be a fishery independent survey. So one that's not collected from anglers that we go out and. Collect data on the water and we can track the abundance from one year to the next for a fish species.
And so we can look to see, okay, based on this same sampling methodology and this, you know, data collection area that we've been sampling year over year, the population is changing, you know, and trending in one direction or another, remaining stable, right? So that to me is more of the gold standard of what we'd ideally like to have.
When you get into a large area like the Gulf of America, it becomes very challenging because you're gonna have, um, differences in, um, in changes in abundance that could be based on just local fishing activity. Um, in terms of recreational data, I would say. That's the area that's received the greatest criticism.
Um, and so that's why we've worked really collaboratively with the state partners to improve state surveys. So they've obviously come up with a lot of great design ideas and, uh, work to test a lot of new survey methodologies. But, um, we have been working closely with them to review and certify those surveys and have, you know, statistical design experts and others help with improvements to those surveys over time.
And so, you know, I get back to it's a collective effort and, uh, we're not satisfied with kind of the one size fits all. And if we can use a survey that's, you know, um. Best for managing that fishery or resource, then we're shifting toward, you know, making those improvements to our surveys.
Mm-hmm. On the one thing that you, that you called the Gold standard, um, can you describe the, the way that that data would be collected?
I mean, it sounded like you're, you're doing it the same way every year. So is that data or observational data or what, what does that look like?
Yeah, so, um, I, I guess I'll give a great example of, in our South Atlantic, um, fisheries, we have, um, surveys that are conducted from North Carolina at about Cape Canaveral, and they use, um, either cameras or fish traps called Chevron traps.
Hmm. They don't go out and necessarily sample the same location year over year. They have to do random sampling, um, across the entire shelf, but they'll take a. You know, 500 to a thousand, you know, samples of sites throughout the South Atlantic, uh, each and every year. And so when you collect enough information over time along the shelf, um, you can look at those year over year changes and trends and fish populations and how, um, management is either, um, affecting those populations or how those populations might be changing for better or worse.
So it's a randomized sampling design conduct on a research vessels. Uh, but ultimately what it tells us is, uh, really the trends in abundance and what's occurring with that population, uh, in terms of, uh, status, the
fish trap, that that's something I've not heard before. Like, like going out and doing the, the independent sampling, I'm assuming, and I think some other people are that.
Well, it's just people out there fishing, scientists out there fishing, which not, not, might, might be good fishermen, but might also be scientists, you know, compared to like a commercial fisherman that does this every single day. Um, I mean, I've done some volunteer work with different scientists and even just the way that they, you know, handle a fish compared to a professional fishing guide is, is quite a bit different.
Um, because one does it every single day and one's doing it every now and then. Um, not, and I'm not, and that's not a blanket. Um, there's plenty of great fishing scientists out there, but there's also plenty that, um, may not be great at it. But I had not heard that the, the fish trap, like the fish trap is a great fisherman.
It's gonna be a very consistent fisherman from one year to another. If you put fish traps in the same area and you catch more fish this year than you did last year, that seems to be a very consistent way, even more so than a rod and a reel, even more so than maybe a visual, uh, you know, scuba diving, um, visual observation of what's there because they could be there today or not.
But a fish trap catches 24 7 all the time. And um, so is that like, that's the gold standard, is that type of sampling? I.
Not necessarily fish traps, but just these independent surveys that I'm talking about that are conducted, uh, you know, based on research year over year, right? Mm-hmm. Because that's where you, um, then start looking at those trends and how the populations are changing.
But I wanna say, first I agree with you, right? Like, you're gonna be a better fisherman than I am because I spend a lot of my time in meetings and at, um, you know, my desk and I'm not on the water nearly as much as maybe someone like yourself or commercial fisherman's doing this day in and day out, right?
Mm-hmm. So that's where it becomes important that it's not just the surveys that are conducted by a. The fishery service are our partners. It's looking at holistically all of these pieces of data and information to, um, tell us a story or, or tell us essentially what's happening with a fishery, uh, and how things are changing the environment.
And oftentimes what we do see with a stock assessment is if things are turning for the worse or turning for the better. There's gonna be a lot of different data sets that are gonna tell us that, right? Mm-hmm. So, um, the trap, uh, survey that I mentioned, that's good for species that, um, are smaller and can fit in the trap, right?
But once they get to a large enough size, then you have some bias associated with fish not being able to enter that trap. Mm-hmm. So that's then where video cameras can really help. So deploying those video cameras on the bottom to be the eyes of what the trap isn't catching helps us also to inform then our catch estimates.
Um, but. Overall, it's really just kind of the full picture of a lot of different pieces of data that ultimately get woven together that tell us the health and status of a population through a stock access.
And so we've talked about so many different, um, um, collections of data and so many different data sets and different technologies, video, cameras, cameras mounted on the side of, uh, of boats as you see that, um.
You know, obviously we're, we're all kind of experiencing a change in the world with, with how much technology is available to just an individual person. With our iPhones and our GoPros and everything else on a government level, you have even more, um, opportunity to take advantage of the technology that's out there.
Do you see that AI is going to be, um, a large part of, of assessing and processing this data in the future? Or what's the, what is the kind of, how does, how does it get processed now into something that tells you a story, like an overall, when you have all of these data coming in from all of these different states and different types of measurements and it just seems incredibly complicated.
Is there a way that, um, technology helps us to understand exactly what's going on?
Yeah, 100%. And, uh, you know, artificial intelligence is an area that we are rapidly expanding into. Um, whether it's, you know, the trap surveys I mentioned, those video surveys, it's um, uh, other information that we're collecting, right?
If in the past if you did a video survey, someone's having to, you know, come back, download that video. Mm-hmm. Review the tapes, sub-sample the tapes and information, we're now able to train, um, artificial intelligence, machine learning to actually recognize, okay, that's a red snapper, that's a black sea bass, that's a another species of fish.
And do those counts for us. Uh, and you know, our hope, I think our goal is for a lot of the at sea research that our agency does and our partners do, is that by the time the boat returns, the dock within, you know. Weeks, if not days, we can actually have data and information rarely available to us. Whereas in the past, that could be up to a year time lag between when the research vessel completed.
And so in, in, in a lot of those, in the past, there's been some real delays in, you know, processing the data. And then now the, now once it's processed, it's a year old and you're making a decision on a, on, on data that's a year old. Um, will, if it were, if you could speed that process up like you just described, how would that help, um, the decision making process?
Because you're making, you're, you're, you're not guessing anymore, I guess, on year old data. Um, is that something that is, is being embraced?
Yeah. So that's you. Absolutely what we see, obviously on the water, right? Our experience from year to year can rapidly change and, uh, you know, the abundance of one species might be very different from one year to the next.
And so the more closely we can align when the science and research and data is collected to when the management advice is given, the better we're gonna have with regard to, I think, trust and buy-in and support with anglers, because we're reacting to obviously the information in as quickly of a manner as we can.
Mm-hmm. Interesting. Okay. So, um, one of the things,
let me just mention, so one other important component that, um, we pride ourselves on as working cooperatively with fishermen, right? Whether it's commercial or. Charter or even private anglers. So we do a good amount of cooperative research. Um, also with the South Atlantic Fishery Management Council, they have a citizen science program, so they essentially engage anglers in helping to provide data on certain topics that might inform, uh, a certain spec fisheries issue or species issues that we're encountering.
Um, so that's another way that people can get involved. We talked about the advisory panels earlier. Well, if you don't wanna be on an advisory panel, you don't wanna show up to meetings, but you wanna be a part of the improvements in the science and the data, um, there are ways that we can get you involved with cooperative research and citizen science.
What, and like, what would that look like? You'd just report your catches more regularly, or, or there was a, a portal that you provide information in, or what would that look like?
I mean, it varies. Um, we have, you know, Cooper Cooperative research projects that might be, you know, specific to actually going out on your boat and, you know, going on commercial trips and collecting data on certain key species, um, you know, gag in the Gulf of, uh, America, for example.
Um, one of the things we're trying to understand and learn is kind of the, uh, abundance of males because they transition from females to males as they get older. And so, you know, looking at the population that's far offshore, where those males are reproducing is key. And so people have helped, you know, cooperatively do research with scientists to go out and, um.
Catch some of those, um, gag and gain, obviously informed information about, um, the health and status of the male population. But with the citizen science program, it could be as simple as like, you download an app and when you go out on a fishing trip, you report, you know, certain information about your catches or fishing experience.
Hmm, okay. I'm sure that lots of people would be interested in doing that. Um, and what about the other fish? We talked about the, the gag grouper. Um, what about other grouper regulations? Are there any, um, anything that anyone needs to be aware of, uh, other than the gag grouper regulations?
Yeah, so with, um, gag, we're in a rebuilding plan and so we are, um.
Working to obviously rebuild that population, the, in both the Gulf and South Atlantic. Um, we will soon be announcing the season for, um, Gulf of America, but it'll be roughly similar to what it was last year, which was a fairly short two week season. For Red Grouper, it's a good news story. So we did have a good, um, population assessment.
Um, the Gulf Council, uh, asked us to do an emergency rule to, um, implement higher catch limits. And so we are in the throes of finalizing that work. And, um, if you're, you know, aware of the Red Grouper regulations, we've been closing red grouper around this time the last few years. And so the fishery's gonna remain open and hopefully remain open through the rest of the year based on this new science and information.
Uh, we're also doing some work on, um, modifying regulations for scam as well as deep water grouper. So a lot of things that are kind of actively in the process for both the Gulf and South Atlantic. And just recommend people stay tuned, obviously as we continue to work through those regulatory actions.
That is really good news. And are, is there any other good news on Dolphin or Wahoo or anything else that, uh, that we could discuss?
Nothing with regard to, um, dolphin or Wahoo at this time. Um, we are, uh, doing some work and research on Dolphin. Um, there's definitely been, obviously some pretty substantial shifts and changes in abundance of Dolphin.
Um, there's been movement up the coast of the United States where more dolphin are being harvested, you know, north of the South Atlantic region. Uh, so more work to be done there. So really no changes to be expected on, uh, dolphin or Wahoo in the near term.
Okay. And then one of the things that you hear the most, and I, and I do understand from Sean this morning, we were talking, uh, before or yesterday about the Sharks and, and that there's a, a different council or.
Who, who manages the sharks, I guess is what I should ask you first in, in at noaa?
Yeah. So it is within NOA fisheries that highly migratory species are managed. Um, and so sharks are part of the highly migratory species management. Um, it's different than the process I talked about earlier. So there's no fishery management council.
Um, they do have an advisory panel that's actually considerably larger than the ones I talked about earlier that provides them advice and guidance. But, uh, the highly migratory species division is the ones that ultimately develop the regulations and, uh, implement the rules. And so they, um. Take advice from their advisory panel on both on, on shark regulations.
And then, um, they're responsible for, uh, implementing those regulations as part of the fishery service. They also, um, work with the international, uh, ICAT conservation of Atlantic Tunas. Um, so that's obviously an international body that, uh, manages tunas and other highly migratory species. And so, um, catch levels and other regulations that are specified, um, based on work through that process, you know, or hammered out through, um, an international body, um, that's, um, broader than obviously just, uh, domestic, uh, scientists working on, you know, shark related issues.
So that brings in the, the, the tuna, but, and, and the tuna and the shark are, are, are like managed together. Or why would, why would, is there not like a domestic shark management?
Yeah, so sharks are managed as part of the highly pro migratory species division. Right. They're not managed under an international body like, um, I was describing for tunas.
Right.
Um, but because obviously sharks, uh, move up and down the coast and large, you know, distances, they're considered, uh, you know, migratory animals so they move, um, throughout the region.
Well, I'm hoping Sean said he might be able to help me to get, um, another show set up with, with someone that would be, you know, like the equivalent of you in, in charge of the highly migratory shark.
Absolutely. Highly migratory, uh, species because, you know, I mean that's what, like we said, the red snapper's a hot button or the gag grouper's a hot button. The sharks right now are, are least in Florida and up the sea. Well, I mean, pretty much everywhere that I've been. Um, lately all the way from Texas, Louisiana, the entire state of Florida and up the, up the, uh, east coast there, there are more sharks than I've ever seen before.
Um, and, and that's the story that continues to be echoed out there. And so it, as it, and I know that you're not the one that's in, in charge of this, but as it comes to making decisions about them, that highly migratory species, um, council, is that what it's called? The council?
It's not a council, it's just a division within No fisheries.
Okay. So that
division would be in charge of setting limits and restrictions on, on sharks? Correct. Okay. And, um, Noah as a whole, I guess, and even in as it bleeds over into your, uh, world, is everyone kind of. Aware of the depredation and the encounters and the increase in the population. And is that something that, I mean, for a while it was disputed, not, not necessarily by Noah or anybody else, uh, uh, like a government, um, body, but just, it was just kind of disputed.
I had plenty of people on the podcast. I'm like, there's more sharks in Florida than I've ever seen before. No, no, no, man. It's global. Global decline in, in numbers. And I just, I just wonder where like, is it so obvious now that, that Noah recognizes that there are a lot of sharks in Florida? I mean like a lot more than normal.
So I get a lot of complaints about shark depredation and dolphin depredation and, um, dolphins are protecting the Marine Mammal Protection Act. Um, there's not a lot of, obviously, ways that we can deter dolphins from degradating on, you know, released fish sharks. Obviously the frustration is what you're saying, right, is that they are much more abundant than they used to be, and obviously they're, um, being encountered more frequently, uh, either being caught, uh, directly or, you know, indirectly, uh, chewing on obviously your catch.
So it's a frustration. It's, I think something that. We readily recognize is, um, a challenge like I talked about previously. You know, with Red Snapper, some of our other species, you know, we've been rebuilding, you know, populations and sharks are no different than that, right? So we've been rebuilding the shark populations based on federal mandates.
And so you would expect, obviously as we do that and if we're successful, that shark populations will increase in abundance. Mm-hmm. The challenge obviously becomes then. People encountering more sharks and kind of the belief of kind of how many sharks is enough, you know, what's sustainable, what's viewed as sufficient for, um, managing shark populations relative to some of the, um, other fisheries that we may be managing.
And what are the direct impacts that sharks have? One of the things we talked about earlier that I'll just tie together, 'cause I get asked this quite frequently, is, well, how does shark depredation factor into release mortality, right? Mm-hmm. And so, um, to the extent that we, um, are either doing observer studies or conducting research in which sharks, um, are degradating on release catch, that gets factored into estimates of release mortality, right?
So we aren't, we're not ignoring it, right? We're actually. Recognizing that there is this, you know, natural mortality that's occurring in the environment, having to look at, uh, factor that, and obviously, um, our assessments and, um, release studies that are being conducted. Uh, but it's um, certainly a frustration that I hear loud and clear, Tom.
And, um, we haven't come up with any good solutions yet, unfortunately for how we balance obviously shark management with other fisheries management.
So we were talking about just, just sharks, and I was saying that I had Chris Fisher of o search on the podcast not long ago, and I was interested in his opinion about the Sharks, um, because he does so much, you know, tagging and, and, and he, his opinion was, listen, if there's a lot of sharks, there's a lot of things for sharks to eat.
And that's a, that's a sign of a healthy ocean. And what you just kind of alluded to is that if you're in a rebuilding of phase of a fishery. Then this is showing signs that it's really working, right? Like, like there's plenty of frustration about sharks because they eat what you're trying to catch. But if you look at it on another, from another angle, is that a sign of a healthy ocean in your, in your opinion or like, or a healthier ocean or signs that, that, that, um, fishery is rebuilding as, as kind of designed?
Yeah. I mean, sharks are apex predators, right? So they're the top of the food train. So the fact that they're, uh, abundant or increasing in abundance, obviously my view is a good thing. I think, you know, to talk about like a healthy ocean. Um. Probably a broader brush than I would paint. Um, you know, you have everything from Habitat, right?
Mm-hmm. You know how your coral systems are, um, doing right now down in the keys to, um, estuaries and seagrass beds, um, all the way to, um, complexes of fish species, right? Snapper group were being a great example. And so looking at kind of the health and status of the, uh, fisheries as a whole I think is really important.
But this is probably a good segue 'cause I never talked about South Atlantic red Snapper and, you know, to me, south Atlantic red snappers a success story from the standpoint of the rebuilding progress we've made and the health and status of the population. Um, we've, um. Just recently declared that it's no longer overfished, but still rebuilding to the, uh, target for, um, rebuilding the population.
It's no longer undergoing overfishing. And so most cases you'd say, okay, that sounds great. Right? This is good news. Mm-hmm. And the frustration obviously for anglers is, okay, well if it is so healthy, why aren't we given more fishing opportunities? Right. And that has been, um, a huge challenge for us. And we, um, just completed some work, uh, that was very controversial.
Uh, but you know, our. Goal with the fishery service initially was to try to figure out ways to reduce some of those fish that were being released that later die, and then allow for, um, anglers to retain more red snapper as landed catch. Um, as you well know, we have good. Weather most of the year in the southeast.
So people are out on the water fishing for a variety of species. They go out fishing for snapper grouper and whether it's open or closed, they're encountering a whole variety of different snapper grouper species and red snapper's part of that complex. And they get caught. And then, um, many get released or all, no, you know, they get released outta season and ultimately a portion of those die.
So we have a large number of fish that are obviously dying from release. We wanna figure out ways to increase the retain catch. Uh, but in order to do that, we have to figure out ways to essentially either keep anglers off of those fish to not release them or reduce their release mortality. Right. Um. But I wanted to emphasize that, you know, our science, uh, is really telling the same story as what anglers are seeing, which is this population is doing really well and has improved greatly in abundance over the last 10 to 15 years.
Uh, and where we're, uh, at with the fishery service is our goal is to continue to focus on ways that we can improve. Um, the catch levels and allow for more landed catch of red snapper. We're working right now with the state of Florida on what are called exempted phishing permits, which you may have heard of, which are testing some different new management strategies such as, uh, an aggregate bag limit for snapper grouper to allow for retention, not only red snapper, but a whole host of other snapper grouper as part of the bag limit to some full retention chips that essentially allow for harvest of a select group of people that apply for a permit.
Uh, the ability to go out and catch red snapper, but in turn with some additional requirements such as more rigorous reporting. So right now, season is, you know, short, it's only a couple of days. Our goal is obviously to figure out ways to expand that season and provide more fishing opportunities in order to do the.
So, um, we're gonna need obviously either some new information on the science side that tells us that we can increase the catch limits or new ways to obviously reduce those discards in the fishery to allow for more fish to be retained.
Okay. Very cool. Um, so we've gone over a whole bunch of, uh, a whole bunch of different stuff.
Um, one thing I'd like for you to leave us with is, um, you know, we, we've talked about the ways that people can get on the council and the ways that are, are on the advisory panels, um, and the ways that they could, um, volunteer for, um, different, different things to provide more information, information for the general angler.
Um, what, what can be done, or, or what could a gen, just a regular re recreational angler do to, um, to help Noah? Um. Make these decisions? Is it to participate in the doc studies? Is it to, um, volunteer for some of these different things that we've talked about? Or would you have any advice for, for somebody who is just kind of learning this process, very interested in phishing, um, and wants to see, you know, more red snapper, uh, opportunities or more gag grouper opportunities?
What, what is, what is a, a recreational angler to do?
Yeah, so one of your suggestions is a great one. 'cause we often, you know, hear frustration about, oh well you're regulating us too much. We don't wanna provide data 'cause it's just gonna be used against us. Right? That is not ever our intent. Our intent is to obviously use the best information available and we want to obviously collect as much information as we possibly can to improve and enhance our management.
So our willingness, obviously, to provide data when asked for it directly, whether it's through doc side surveys or mail surveys. Um, we talked about cooperative research or citizen science. So those that are willing to participate in projects and studies like that, that can contribute data, um, to the agency.
And then I think the other big thing is just, um. Uh, generically I'll refer to as best fishing practices, right? So going out on the water, having a great day with your family and friends, but at the end of the day, taking care of those fish, right best handling practices, using descending devices, venting the fish when they need to be vented, moving away from spots where there might be dolphin or shark depredation.
All of those things can obviously contribute to both a better experience for you on the day that you're fishing, but also a better experience for tomorrow because fish are surviving and living to essentially be harvested another day.
Great. Great. Okay. Well, I think this has been, uh, really good and I want to thank you for, for, uh, your time and coming on here and giving us all this information.
I really, really appreciate it. If people wanted to reach out to you or your, or your division, what would they, uh, is there a way that they can, um, ask further questions or, or get in touch?
Yeah, so they can, um, find us at the Noah Fishery Southeast Regional Office. Um, they can contact me, uh, directly or Sean Mehan my recreational fishing coordinator.
Um, we have contact information on our website and also happy to provide to you afterward.
Okay, great. We'll do that and I'll put it in the show notes. And, uh, I wanna thank you for doing that, uh, for, for being on today and, and hopefully we can do another show in the future to, uh, to announce like some big, uh, red snapper news or some big gag grouper news that, uh, you're gonna have this big open season because we got all this great data.
Um, but that, that would be fantastic. But thank you very much Andy. I really appreciate it. And thank you Sean, for helping us to set all this up. And, uh, thank you for everybody that's listening. Uh, hope this answered some of your questions. I know we've had a lot of requests for a show like this, so thank you for.
Uh, continuing to listen and thank you for your questions. We'll be back with another awesome guest just like Andy next week. So please share this with people that would be interested and also tune in next week. We'll see you then. See you.